Criminality vs Religion
This is in response to another Anonymous comment.
The figures I give here are taken from the results of various studies in the USA and from the National Census in the UK.
The USA can claim to be the most religious country in the world with 81% of the population claiming some sort of religion and 11% claiming atheism/agnoticism. So, non-theists are outnumbered, the ratio being roughly 7:1, in prison however, non-theists are outnumbered by a whopping 2000:1 (you like ratios Anonymous, how's that?). Under the highly religious Bush government, the USA prison population has risen to 2 million, its highest ever, this is 25% of the world's prison population in a country with only 5% of the world's people!
In America, it's beginning to look like religion leads not to heaven but to the penitentiary! Incidentally, Roman Catholics seem to be the worst crooks since they form a disproportionate number of the jailed criminals.
In the UK, atheists form 16% of the population while 71% claim some form of religion. It's difficult to be certain here because at the 2001 census, around 9000 people claimed Jedi Knight as their religion! (no joke) The signifcant difference is that religion is not taken nearly as seriously in the UK as in the USA, only 11% of British people said religion was important to them, while 53% of Americans did. I'm finding it difficult to get precise religious/non-religious figures for UK prisoners but it looks to be on a par with the USA situation.
Now Anonymous, on to the "many scientists" you say believe in some sort of omnipotent god. Well, of the elite scientists in the USA and Europe i.e. those who are Fellows of National Societies, 97% say they have no religious belief, sorry pal, 3% is not "many" by anybody's standard!
You accuse atheism of being the downfall of these "friggin' Soviets" as you call them. Well, I can't let you away with that (neither, I suspect, will the Russians). Perhaps you are unaware that some the finest composers, artists, mathematicians and certainly some of the very best scientists, were and still are, Russian and atheistic. You need to be less insular and parochial, study the real reason for the Soviet transformation.
In conclusion, I stand by my original post, if a properly conducted scientific study were carried out, I think the results would show atheists to be more intelligent than theists. In addition, it's not belief (as you say) that's dangerous, it's belief in a doctrine that kills people that is dangerous. Religion, is one such belief.
posted by Geo at 8:03 pm
4 Comments:
I'll put my counterpoints in order.
1) Religion responsible for overcrowding
I didn't dispute this fact at all. Atheists are a small population. What is you point with this? Religious people are in the majority and it is a bad thing, but if atheists were in the majority, it would be just as bad. (i.e. Soviets) To state that our prison system sucks and only creates a cycle is a statment that I can completely agree with but this has nothing to do with religion. This has to do with an american's inability to think they should sacrifice their comfort and their insatiable desire for revenge instead of justice, fostered by their political origin.
2) Religious people more likely to go to prison First off, realize that the oppressive nature of prison creates a phycological tendency to want to find religion, so one has something to rely on. (This is based on a philosophy I have that religion is manifested on the fear of one being responsible for themselves while atheism is manifested on the fear of one not having complete control of themselves.) Now, look at the fact that religious thinking is in the majority and whatever is in the majority (not just simply religion) is the opiate of the masses, more specifically the lower class. Knowing this, one has to assume that what ever ideal is in the majority will be more apparent in the prisons. Realizing all this, the numbers get skewed and the only adverse example to look at are the Soviets or something similar but they inflicted religious persecution which, again, skews the numbers.
3) Scientists believing in god I'm not saying most scientists believe in god. I'm saying many leading physicists believe there is a semi-conscious omnipotent force, not a god. This is their only explanation for the results of plenty experiments. One being where an atom was altered in some way on one side of the earth and the other atom on the other side showed it had acknwoledged this change. Both were in a complete vacuum. Also, keep in mind my previous theory. Scientists seek to gain control. Because of this, they would tend to be atheists.
4) The Influence of the Soviets
You are right about this but for all the wrong reasons. Within oppression, creativity flourishes. This is present in everything we see. Working on your theory, we can assume that Nazi Germany was an excellent government system because it was able to produce many of the great scientists of our time. Also, keep in mind that, while Stephen Hawking may not be religious in the stricktest sense, Albert Einstein was. So was Galileo, despite popular belief. (He hated the catholics for their persecution but he still believed in God.) My example of the Soviets was to show that a government ruled by any ideal, regardless of the religious inluence, and solely that ideal will absolutely become corrupt and unjust.
4) Leading up to the Soviets
I know what leads up to the soviets. It was a reaction to a heavily religious society that oppressed it's people. What I'm saying is that a heavily atheist society can still oppress it's people, just the same. You seem to think that I am saying you are not right about religion. I'm not. I'm only saying that religion and no religion are one and the same when it comes to an ideal.
5)Belief in a Doctrine Belief in ANYTHING is belief in a doctrine and if a group is passionate enough about it than it is a doctrine that kills. Regardless of the base.
In closing, I am not saying religion is good. I'm saying atheism is just the same. It is nothing new except another belief. If you think it is true, it is only because you find it more believable. It does not make it undoubtedly better.
P.S. Also, if you are going to try and use smart words. Make sure they don't mean almost the same thing. You could have just said parochial and the statement of me being insular would have been covered. :)
I think you said you were 18, for an 18-year old you argue better than some but you don't have a complete grasp of things, you sound as if you haven't studied yourself but have used things others have told you.
Some examples:
Insular means "suggestive of island living", parochial means "narrow of outlook, of this parish".
Your point about atoms is also wrong; you are referring to the spin property of quantum particles (photons), they are not atoms.
Atheism is not a belief, it's the lack of one.
"Many leading physicists believe in a semi-conscious omnipotent force" No they don't! Semi-conscious AND omnipotent! Anyway, omnipotent means "all powerful", that's a god by any other name!
No doubt a few people become religious upon imprisonment, but that's all. This tired old argument put forward by religites has been destroyed many times.
"Scientists seek to gain control", no they don't, they seek the truth, that is the purpose of science. In fact, they give up control, that's what allowed politicians to detonate nuclear weapons. Politicians seek control!
Einstein was not religious in the sense you mean, he got so pissed at people saying this that he released a statement about it, it's on the net, go find it! I'm not going to do your research for you!
I sense that you've been raised with a religious background and are beginning to see the light, but can't quite let go, keep at it, you'll overcome the brainwashing. Saying that an atheistic world would be as bad as a religious one is nonsense, you have absolutely no evidence for making such a statement.
I could go on but I'll stop here and offer you a piece of positive advice. You have the capacity to think, please do so, then do your research, see how your thoughts compare with the world's best thinkers.
So it's proton spin. My point still stands. Also, so you honestly don't believe that if science and athiesm controlled our way of thinking and our morals that we would have no problems? So, how do you feel about being murdered by some secret police because you were not genetically up to snuff? How about being killed because you are practicing something that science cannot explain? In a world where science is looked upon as supreme rule, if science cannot explain something, they would seek to destroy it.
You call me brainwashed but, if you haven't realized, I am in no way defending religion. I think it is a terrible thing just the same. I tried not saying this but I am by default atheist. I believe god is just a figment of a person's imagination that is manifested through will and is not a supreme deity. What I am saying is that I am not too disillusioned to realze that any person's belief, even the lack of it, does not deserve to reign supreme and a utopia under one ideal does not exist.
Also, insular is sugestive of island living because you have a narrow outlook, one that is detached. Essentially, the same thing as parochial except parochial indicates a religiously guided narrow, detached outlook. I may not know science but I know my english.
Careful guys, don't get carried away with out-smarting each other, it belittles your pseudo intellect!
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